That’s it! I think that for me, although I know in my head that this is what I should want, I actually really want other things. If I truly only wanted to love Him and others, to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly, to rejoice, pray, give thanks and make peace, then I would have opportunity to do what I want, every moment of every day. But I find in myself anger at setbacks, annoyance at disruptions, fear of failure to accomplish something, longing to be understood and liked, and desire to “feel good” through a panoply of means which I have discovered over years of living. So my prayer lately has been: “God, I am powerless even to want what I know I should want!”
me:
I hear you! “I am powerless even to want what I know I should want.” True.
Some disjointed follow-up thoughts:
For my part, l am so motivated by a desire to steer clear of feeling bad (angry, disgruntled, disappointed, frustrated, resentful, petulant, argumentative) that I’m thrilled to have found a Desire that is always fulfillable.
That this Desire is so prosocial and thus means that I can apply my dopaminergic drive toward the production of the more durably happyifying serotonin is a major bonus.
I think ridding ourselves of our secondary desires is neither advisable nor possible. John doesn’t write that we should shed the yearnings of the flesh and the yearnings of the eyes and the pride of our estate—he writes that we shouldn’t love those yearnings and pride. The trick is to subject those desires for other things—even if those things are plainly altruistic—to the absolute lordship of Jesus the Messiah and His Father, who usually do not require specific action but rather only the fulfillment of The Royal Law.
friend:
Hence discerning the “will of God” is kind of a fool’s errand since we know His will and we have secondary desires. Where I used to work, we used to say “love God and do what you want.” I always hated this because the some people took that as, “Sweet! I love God—and I’m going surfing. Screw those hard missions.” Yet I think your point remains.
In any event, we could also say “If you acquire and achieve all the most kingdom-focused secondary desires you could think of, but you don’t love, you lost the plot!”
me:
I think there are two kinds of people in the world: those who need to ask “What do I want?” and those who need to ask “What’s the right thing to do?”
As for “love God and go surfing,” I talked with another friend about that this morning. We agreed that there there’s nothing wrong with going surfing, and that if you surf in joyful thanksgiving to the Lord, it is worship. However, we also agreed that if all you do is eat, drink, and surf, showing no concern for the things that concern God, it can hardly be said that you love God. That’s the corrective.
As I’ve left the penal substitutionary atonement understanding of things, I’ve come to believe that God’s forgiveness was present before the Cross and that the blood of Jesus was not legally necessary for God to forgive sins: It was necessary for us to understand it. Because of this, I don’t see forgiveness in legal terms, but rather in terms of relationship: We simply return to Him, which was available pre-Christ as well.
Yet there are many troubling passages which allude to a legal understanding, as in “If you do this, then legally you’re out of mercy.” Among them Hebrews 10:
> For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God (vv. 26-31).
What do you do with passages like this? And how do you see the work of the Cross? I feel like I have to keep going around this tree to understand the PSA theory and there are certainly a lot of scriptures that affirm that understanding of things.
me:
My short answer to any question about the New Testament’s talk of Jesus’ blood, sacrifice, and the resulting cleansing from sin: What’s wrong with a little metaphor?
Of course, it’s not all metaphor. Jesus really did make a sacrifice, viz., a relinquishment of something to gain a greater good. And it really was bloody. And it really does have an effect on sin. But don’t completely literalize the reference to the Levitical system, especially in a book that’s explicit that God doesn’t want that kind of sacrifice.
It also helps to always keep the following two and a half facts in mind:
Who killed Jesus? People, not God (although Jesus did relinquish his life willingly).
Could God forgive without the Cross? As you’ve already said, yes.
Now, the beginning of my long answer to your specific question goes like this: For my part, I don’t see a legal understanding in the passage you cite. But in it I do see most of your paraphrase—“If you do this, then … you’re out of mercy.” And you’re right that this idea isn’t unique to Hebrews. You’ll find it in:
2 Peter 2:20-22,
James 2:13, and
Matthew 6:14-15,
along with echoes of it in any passage implying an only conditional, potentially temporary efficacy of salvation (Mark 4:16-19, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, 1 John 2:24, 2 John 1:8, Revelation 3:1-5; see also Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 9:62, and John 8:11).
So, how does Jesus once-for-all sacrifice (Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 10:10; Romans 6:10) have its good effect on our sin? And, understanding that effect, how can it be that it can be nullified?
More than a few books have been written to answer the first question. And I think you’ve done a lot of thinking on the subject yourself that will help you interpret the second. Here’s the tip of the iceberg of my response, based mostly on Hebrews itself:
Note the very first way the writer of Hebrews says we are saved. It’s been one of your favorite biblical phrases of late: “Since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives” (Hebrews 2:14-15, emphasis mine). Two sentences later, this very liberation is put into terms closer to those of chapter ten: “Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every way. This was so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, in order to wipe away the sins of the people” (v. 17, CEB). The two concepts—removal of sins and freedom from the fear of death—are related.
And now I’ve got to go to work. More later. Hopefully we can boil this stuff down when we’re done.
me again:
Lemme see if I can finish this now. Perhaps a dose of hurry-up-you’ve-got-to-go-to-work will get this stuff out faster.
God doesn’t need blood sacrifice to forgive sins. God instituted (or allowed the Israelites to believe that He instituted) various blood sacrifices because that’s what they could comprehend as the way to be reconciled to God. And indeed, it’s worthwhile to see that sin and estrangement from God cost something. But God Himself doesn’t need it.
It’s no different with Jesus. God didn’t need Jesus’ sacrifice to forgive sins. Israel may have needed to see it that way for a time for them to have any chance of a crucified messiah making any sense to them. But more to the root of things, God has always been in business of, for our good and as an expression of His essential character, subjecting Himself to human misconstrual and resistance and not being overcome by it, defeated by it, or cowed into giving up on going for His rightful, very loving, very beneficent reign among us. On the Cross, God goes as far as He can go in doing that by allowing humanity to do its very worst to Him and then overcoming it. He overcomes it by utterly refusing to retaliate—indeed, by offering forgiveness and “times of refreshing” (Acts 3:19)!—and by raising Jesus from the dead.
Thus, He has proven that He is not a “hard man” (Matthew 25:24). He really is slow to anger—the only thing that makes Him mad are things that keep people from Him and from flourishing—and abounding in mercy, as the Old Testament always said.
And thus, He has shown that we are not to fear death—neither as annihilation nor as the doorway to unjust, unkind divine judgement.
So if you sin willfully after learning this stuff, the “sacrifice for sins” goes away for you in Hebrews 10:26 because there’s nothing more God can do this side of heaven to convince You that He is not like you thought, that life’s not a bitch and then you die, and that therefore sin, which hurts other people and rejects God’s loving kingship, is not worthwhile. Was the Incarnation not enough? Was Jesus’ ministry not enough? Was His subjection to gruesome, unjust execution at the hand of your fellow men not enough? Was His resurrection not enough? Was His refusal to retaliate upon His resurrection not enough? Well then nothing will be enough. You’re trampling underfoot the Son of God, regarding His sacrifice as unclean, and insulting the Spirit of grace (i.e., gift). There will be terrifying judgment for that, and as long as you hold that view, you are by definition in outer darkness.
By the way, given its very nature, the sacrifice for sins doesn’t actually cease to exist in some ontological sense. It only becomes unavailable, in an epistemic sense, if you sin willfully. And read 1 John 1:7–2:2 and Luke 17:3-4 and tell me the sacrifice doesn’t become immediately available to us again upon confession and repentance.
So none of this is legalese. It is utter, self-sacrificial Gift from the king of the cosmos and its refusal. Think of how you’d feel if you went all out, liquidating all your net worth so you could buy [your wife] a gift that cost that much—and then her not believing that you love her and acting against your wishes and hurting herself and others and spurning you. Would’t you be a little angry? Wouldn’t you be righteous in calling her ungrateful? Might you not cast her out of your house for a time?
Of course, we’re judged in light of what we know. If we haven’t fully received a knowledge of the truth, which is the prerequisite for Hebrews 10:26ff to take effect, then God will not judge us as harshly. If [your wife] couldn’t or didn’t know how much you paid, failed to see why you gave her the gift in the first place, couldn’t grasp what good it accomplished, or, say, didn’t know who you were, you wouldn’t be harsh at all. It’s only those who have received a knowledge of the truth and then sin willfully who will have to face a severe judgment.
Was reading Hebrews 6:1-3 this morning which lays out the very basics of the faith:1. Repent from any attempts to work toward “goodness”2. Have Faith in God’s forgiveness in Christ3. Baptism at the start of your allegiance to Christ4. Laying on of Hands - to receive the Holy Spirit? And Gifts?5. Resurrection of the dead (for those “in Christ"?)6. Judgement in the age or everlasting judgementMy reflection is that I have largely ignored “judgement” as a primary thing in my toolbox when preaching the gospel and I wonder if I should be rethinking how I communicate the message.[To] the last persons I’ve been involved in helping to allegiance to Christ […] I spoke heavily of the love of God, of their purpose is spreading that love, and becoming like him. The wife was baptized […] and we laid hands on her and prayed for the Holy Spirit. I think she would be able to articulate points 1-5.But I don’t think I shared much of anything about the judgement and that concerns me, as it’s part of the core.If you were teaching a new person about the faith, how would you discuss the judgement?
me:
A smattering of thoughts:“We are not coherent when we applaud justice and jeer judgment” (Dale Allison, Night Comes, which I can loan you via Kindle if you’d like). You can’t have the former without the latter. How do we expect God to deal correctly with everything unless He applies His judgement to it first?I, for one, look forward to being judged by Jesus. It’s the beginning of how He is going to set me right. It’s the beginning of how He is going to set everything right.And it dovetails nicely with other parts to the gospel with which you’re more comfortable: “God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead” (Acts 17:30b-31).It may also help to bring this down to a human level: Social justice warriors belie themselves if they ever say “don’t judge me,” for judgement is the basis of all their work.See also Psalm 7.
friend:
Those are good thoughts and very helpful. If you like Justice, you can’t ignore judgement. I think because the nature of the judgement is so complex and confusing it’s easier to just ignore. But God will make all things right, and weigh the scales, so to speak, which is good.One follow-up. What role does “faith in Christ” have on that day? The righteousness that is by faith, does that change the nature of the judgement? Or is that dealing with HOW we are live right now? That is, we can access Christ now, through faith, which can transform us to live as He desires, which will spare us some judgement. Or when we get to the end and all our misdeeds are judged, we pull out a “get out of trouble free” card by appealing to our faith in Christ.How do you see these working? Faith in Christ and not our works. But then our works being judged.
me:
First, a brief excursus: It’s not just misdeeds that are judged: It’s our good deeds, too. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10). See also Ephesians 6:7-8, among other places. “Judge” is not (or should not be) always be synonymous with “judge negatively.” For example, I judge [a lot of] work you’ve done for […] people […] to be good.Now, in reply to your question about the role of faith in Christ (or, as some translators are now favoring and as I will now throw in for fun as a very distracting aside, “the faithfulness of Christ”—wha!?) on the Day of Judgement, I think you’re basically right when you write, “[W]e can access Christ now, through faith, which can transform us to live as He desires, which will spare us some [negative] judgment.”There is no get-out-of-trouble-free card. Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Prophets, Jesus, Paul, and John of Patmos are clear that we will all be judged, both good deeds and misdeeds, no exception. There is no partiality with God. And we have all fallen short in at least some measure, so we will all undergo at least some negative judgment. Those of us who fall very far short (God no doubt taking into account each of our starting points) will face much more negative judgment. For those folks, it really will be a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.This is where faith comes in. We “persevere in doing good” (Romans 2:7) by faith in and faithfulness to Christ (cf. Hebrews 11). It is by right living that we gain “the life of the Age.”Does the centrality in all this of doing good mean:- that there are paths other than Christianity to a relatively pleasant judgment day for any given person? Of course it does! But those paths, whatever they’re called, are not different paths at their core, for the degree to which they lead to affirming judgment is the degree to which they adhere to God’s Word, that is, to Jesus, whether the people following those paths know it or not (c.f. Emeth following Tash in The Last Battle). Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, whether you call Him by name or not.- that we’re not saved by grace (i.e., a gift)? Of course not! We live and move and have our very being in God. Our very existence is a gift. How much more so our persisting into deathless life after death in the blissful, direct presence of Him whom we’re not even worthy to see! We who are made of dust! That’s saved by grace.
friend:
Wow. So much here:Faith in Christ ensures Everlasting life becomes “The faithfulness of Christ ensures the life “of this age”. That’s a head spin from my evangelical roots.In light of what you’ve written here, which I am inclined to agree with, I need another level of clarity as maybe you see it. So I present an example:- Bill lives an ok but mostly selfish life. Most of his works are just for his own gain, he cheats on his wife, they get divorced, he is a lame father but not abusive, he succeeds in business, hordes his wealth, etc. When he is 75 he finds out he has stage 4 lung cancer and has only weeks to live. As he nears the end of his life, he is watching the television when Franklin Graham comes on the screen. Franklin is half way through his salvation message when a malfunction to Bill’s breathing tube shuts off the oxygen and he dies a few moments later before the end of the message.- Mark lives an ok but mostly selfish life. Most of his works are just for his own gain, he cheats on his wife, they get divorced, he is a lame father but not abusive, he succeeds in business, hordes his wealth, etc. When he is 75 he finds out he has stage 4 lung cancer and has only weeks to live. As he nears the end of his life, he is watching the television when Franklin Graham comes on the screen. Franklin delivers his message on salvation through believing in Christ and saying a prayer of Faith. Mark is deeply moved, regretting his past sins and trusting in Jesus. As Mark is dying he utters the words that he repents of his sins and asks Jesus into his heart. Then he dies.At the judgement day what happens to Bill and what happens to Mark. Are their fates identical. Is Mark’s any different at all having “come to faith” before the clock ran out?And if nothing is different, then we really are talking about Salvation in real terms of relationship with Christ that transforms, and the benefit on judgement day will be in the proportion to which we lived out that transformation in the world. No real benefit for just a statement of belief.
me:
I want to be clear that I’m spitballing. With sometimes forceful rhetoric (as usual), yes. But just spitballing. The rhetoric is just the best way to get an idea across and therefore to have the idea tested. Please push back. I’m ready to be corrected.Now, onto your question:You and I have already reviewed the possibility of postmortem evangelism as being at least biblically implied in 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6, John 5:25, Revelation 21:25, Romans 8:38-39, and perhaps 1 Corinthian 15:29, so I don’t need to make the case to you that Bill’s chances of Making It to the Party don’t end with his demise. But your question isn’t about his Making It to the Party. It’s about whether his pre-Party judgment will be less tolerable than Mark’s.Assuming Bill and Mark are noetic twins and would thus reply identically to Jesus, the answer is no, with the exception that Bill will have to do his regretting in front of the Throne instead of in front of the TV.To me, 1 Timothy 5:8, James 2, and, like, the entirety of 1 John make clear that, as you say, there is “no real benefit for just a statement of belief.”There does, however, remain an urgency to “coming to faith” in this life because it is this life that will be judged. The sooner you repent, the sooner you can get busy Living (or, if you prefer, building out of “gold, silver, and precious stones” [1 Corinthians 3:12]).And as you’d be the first to say, the statement of belief does have a benefit—provided it does not remain “just” a statement of belief, provided we’re not “believing in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:2), provided the seeds of the Word take strong root in our hearts (Matthew 13:18-23, etc.). I don’t need to tell you that our belief in an infinitely kind God who stoops to know us and redeem us and enjoy us and love us is plenty for some people (most people?) to really get going on the narrow gate to Life.
friend:
Yeah, this all makes sense to me and we’ve discussed before, but it does seem to run in the face of so much evangelical work. So much effort to talk about “salvation through faith in Christ” and salvation being ”from judgement.“ So many people rejoicing over the sinner prayers prayed on the deathbeds. How did we get here?One last quick one: So over and over again it talks about “salvation by faith” or that “we are justified by faith.” etc. In Romans 4:5 it basically says the opposite of what we’re saying here about judgement of our works: “You’re justified by faith alone, and not by works.” So what good is the “justification”? Or what am I justified from by faith alone?Is this whole business of justification and salvation just misunderstood as to what the benefits are? We say “salvation” as if people agree what that means.Is the whole thing about “Salvation is relationship with God” which is available to you now through faith, and not through works. So you are not “made right” by your works, you’re just made right by your faith in him (leading to relationship with him lest you believed in vain). So go to him, be transformed by him, because how you live matters, you’re works will be judged, and you can only live transformed if you have relationship with him.
me:
I still rejoice over a sinner’s prayer prayed on deathbeds, inasmuch as it represents true repentance from dead works and real trust in God—just not with a “phew!” about the avoidance of hell or annihilation.I think we got here because as Americans we’re focused on maximizing measurable results. And prayers prayed or hands raised is much easier to measure than love points. Mix in easy transportation, mass communication, and the democratization of hermeneutics, and there you have it. Incidentally, I don’t think the Roman Catholics or the Orthodox have quite the same problem. (They have different ones.)Now, regarding salvation and justification, Romans 4:5 doesn’t contradict the ideas we (and let’s hope the Holy Spirit) are developing here. It complements them: None of us, not even the best among us, deserves to live forever or to be (eventually) treated as though we have acted faultlessly. That these things will happen to us is 100% the gift of God. To receive this gift, we believe Him, entrust ourselves to Him, and begin to follow Him. In that sense, it’s really not that different from what you and I grew up believing.All we’re adding is that at some point after the normal course of this life, each of us will have to give an account of what we’ve done, pre-Jesus and post-Jesus both—and that following the words of the New Testament, including those of our Lord, this assessment has an important place in our suite of morally motivating ideas.Actually, allow me a quick revision. What we’re actually adding is that:- we, the people who have already made profession of trust in and allegiance to Jesus in this life, will be part of the Judgment,- everybody gets the get-out-of-trouble-free card after the Judgement, provided there’s true repentance, and- therefore the traditional rejection of postmortem evangelism is in error.These are our serious departures from the tradition we grew up in.
In the next chapter Jesus seems to switch from Salvation by “what they do” to belief in Him. In chapter 5 he indicates that he’ll raise people who did good deeds up to life and those who did bad deeds to judgement, and then in Chapter 6 it’s those who behold and believe in him that he’ll raise up….
A bit conflicting…How do I get raised up to life!?
Also while I was in the US, one of our leaders here gave a passionate talk about the evils of homosexuality and how the bible “clearly” states this is sin. So that is causing some waves…
Fun fun.
me:
Hi Ethan –
I find my eleventh-grade math-class logic lessons useful here. First of all, there is no p → q statement in John 6:40. It does not say, “If you see the Son and believe in him, then you will have eternal life and I will raise you up on the last day.” So no need to worry about that one. But, you’ll say, at least two other verses in the chapter can be formulated as such:
“[W]hoever believes has eternal life” (v. 47) becomes “If you believe, then you have eternal life” and
“[T]he one who eats this bread will live forever” (v. 58) becomes “If you eat this bread, then you will live forever.”
So, the point is granted. But neither of these statements are “if and only if” statements. The only other thing you can say for sure from these statements is their contrapositives ('q → 'p):
If you don’t have eternal life, then you don’t believe.
If you aren’t living forever, than you haven’t eaten this bread.
You can’t say the original statements’ converses:
If you don’t believe, then you don’t have eternal life.
If you don’t eat this bread, you won’t live forever.
So nothing Jesus says here contradicts his earlier statement. Given this subset of verses, at least, there may be other ways to eternal life—indeed, as you’ve noted, in the earlier, John-5 statement, Jesus says so explicitly, insofar as “the resurrection of life” (ch. 5) and “eternal life” or “living forever” (ch. 6) are synonymous: He says, in effect, that if you do good, then you will come out of your grave to the resurrection of life.
So, assuming being raised up to life is synonymous with having eternal life, how do you get raised up to life? We have two ways that Jesus gives us here: Believe (eat this bread), and do good. Both appear to “work.”
All of the logical analysis above may be moot, however, if we observe that faith without works is dead and that it does no good to call Jesus Lord but not do what He says. Given those two additional data, it may be best to simply conflate the concepts of “believing” and “doing good." In other words, John, like many places in the New Testament, may be a great place to translate pisteuo as “to give allegiance.” Mere belief is no good.
Also, I’m sorry to hear about the waves! I hope your one gal there is OK. Hopefully your leader guy at least made a distinction between same-sex attraction and same-sex sexual activity.
So have you seen your “Kings have no power other than what their subjects give them” anywhere else? Thinking more and more about it in light of 1 Corinthians 1:18 and the Cross being the demonstration of the power of God—precisely because it is the means by which he frees his subjects to become like him.”
me:
I’m not aware of anyone who formulated that thought before I did, although I do connect the highly circumscribed nature of human kingly power to the highly circumscribed nature of divine kingly power posited via the theodicy work of Greg Boyd, Thomas Jay Oord, Christopher McHugh, and John Caputo via Richard Beck. That last link you may find too progressive and deconstructed (as I do), but nevertheless useful. That last link is especially useful because come to think of it, Beck isn’t doing theodicy work with that blog series: He is formulating a rally cry for action. And so are you.
friend:
Hmmm interesting. He is using 1 Corinthians 1:18.
me:
Indeed. Caputo’s ontological assertions aside, Beck’s point sticks.
friend:
Ahh the age of “everyone’s a theologian.” I suppose I’m in that now, too. I think it’s good to have so many eyes on the thing, eh? It just makes for some fun googling—oh, wow, he’s saying angelic beings don’t exist?
me:
Beck is agnostic on the question. He doesn’t think it matters. He wrote a whole book about Satan and purposely plays cagey the whole time about whether he actually believes Satan exists.
friend:
Interesting…where did you come upon him? Now that I consider it, if the whole thing is summed up in love God and love my neighbor, I could be agnostic. Of course, I would have to account for what Jesus was doing and saying all the times he was casting demons out. Hmmm…we should be monks. Then we could just read and contemplate all day.
me:
A friend of mine from my Teen Mania days referred me to him when I first started my soteriology project. For a good understanding of why he doesn’t think it matters whether they’re real (or even, when push comes to shove, whether God is real), see “Is Santa Claus Real? A Parent’s Epistemological Meditation.” As for me, the historical facts before me, both ancient and modern, are easier to explain if there are such beings.
friend:
Yeah…woah this is a rabbit hole…
me:
’Tis. Anyway, yes, let’s be monks. Then we could read, meditate, pray, discuss, eat, and serve. And that could be it. It’d be great. There’s Franciscan monastery in Hollidaysburg. Screw it all. Let’s go.
It was great to be able to chat with you for so long, in spite of the disturbing circumstances. However, God is faithful and I know His truth will prevail.
Alana and I were working on a card project for church which had us in the scriptures. During the course of that time, I came across a few scriptures that I thought you would appreciate. Psalm 77:1-14 seemed to capture some of your thoughts you expressed last night:
I cried out to God for help; I cried out to God to hear me.
When I was in distress, I sought the Lord; at night I stretched out untiring hands, and I would not be comforted.
I remembered you, God, and I groaned; I meditated, and my spirit grew faint. You kept my eyes from closing; I was too troubled to speak.
I thought about the former days, the years of long ago; I remembered my songs in the night.
My heart meditated and my spirit asked: “Will the Lord reject forever? Will he never show his favor again? Has his unfailing love vanished forever? Has his promise failed for all time? Has God forgotten to be merciful? Has he in anger withheld his compassion?”
Then I thought, “To this I will appeal: the years when the Most High stretched out his right hand.
I will remember the deeds of the Lord; yes, I will remember your miracles of long ago. I will consider all your works and meditate on all your mighty deeds. ”Your ways, God, are holy.
What god is as great as our God? You are the God who performs miracles; you display your power among the peoples.
For some further encouragement, here is the link to Bethel’s testimonies: www.ibethel.org/testimoni… There are hundreds of them.
I also came across this as well, just as a word of, well…take it for what it’s worth.
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (Hebrews 3:12-14).
Love you like crazy!
me:
I wanted to briefly update you: I have set my face to follow Jesus. But I have to tell you, uncertainty about Him still undercuts my overall confidence and my prayer life. How do I talk with a still-invisible God of whom I’m unsure? The problem of evil makes it harder to praise Him, the problem of divine hiddenness makes it harder thank Him, and the problem of unanswered prayer makes it harder to ask of Him.
Nevertheless, as I’ve said, I’d be a fool to abandon Something that has worked so well for twenty-five years merely so I can subscribe to facile atheistic answers to three thorny questions.
Anyway, I do have many articles, books, and videos to take in to build myself back up. Thanks again for the link to the Bethel testimonies. They do help a little. And the Psalm is very practical. :)
Question: When you say, “God is faithful and I know His truth will prevail,” what do you mean? Do you mean that you know that He’ll preserve me from falling away from Him? How do you know that? Has His truth prevailed in my sisters’ lives?
mom:
First, let me say that I really appreciate you openess, brutal honesty, and forthrightness on all you are going through. I think about you everyday and pray that God make himself known to you in ways that will overwhelm you (in a good way)…
Your statements of doubt are cruel - as I can see how they are haunting you relentlessly. Yet I would encorage you to:
Talk to Him anyway, praise Him anyway, thank Him anyway (He’s given you soooo much!!!) and pray anyway.
Faith is God’s currency - You will be rewarded.
But I have something else for you to consider that may have some bearing on this ‘silence’ you are experiencing. But it’s something we should discuss when we have the time, or better, in person.
I guess you knew that C.S. Lewis was once an atheist. He apparently struggled with similar questions that you have.
Furthermore, as thorny as these questions are, I think those who have take an atheist’s view have yet thornier questions to answer, such as ‘Why do we exist?’, ‘What are we here for?", Does anything matter? What is truth then? what is right or wrong? We have no purpose and life is essentially meaningless. Everything is just a chemical action or reaction…Yuck….. now that’s depressing.
Another point to be wary of - is believing in God on the premise that it is ‘something that has been working so well for you for 25 years’. That is wonderful and it is true that He has given you much - you have been truly blessed on many fronts!! Yet (God forbid), that could change dramatically overnight if something horrible did happen - would it be all the ammunition you need to curse God and totally reject Him? (…..again, God forbid).
So, I know you you have a lot of material to review, but I recently ordered a brand new book that they were discussing on the radio about miracles. (Miracles: What They Are, Why They Happen, and How They Can Change Your Life - You will be receiving a copy any day now). I’m almost finished reading it and I am impressed with this guy’s intelligence and integrity - it’s well written and I think would appeal to your level of intellect - it’s both personal and academic. How timely! The book starts out and seems to grapple with each of these hard questions that you have been asking: unanswered prayer, the question of evil, etc. There’s no hype….I hope you enjoy it!
As far as the scripture: “God is faithful and I know His truth will prevail,” By this, I didn’t intend to mean that you’ll be preserved from falling, but He will be faithful to show you His truth. What you do with that truth is a choice that you make.
So let’s say for the argument, let’s do the math. The atheism is right, I am wrong, my faith is misguided and there is no God. I die and nothing happens, it’s just over. I’ve had a happy life, and have essentially lost nothing. The atheist did their thing and they lost nothing as well.
However, if my faith is the real deal, there is the God of the Bible, and we die - I gain everything and the atheist loses everything - forever. I’ll take my chances and stick with Jesus. Not that that’s the depth of my faith however, but ‘just sayin’…. :)
Scott, you’re an extremely gifted person and it’s God that has blessed you and created you this way for a purpose (well, probably several purposes).
I believe think God has plans for you (and Carla) that you haven’t even realized yet and ways that He will use you to advance His kingdom that just makes the enemy cringe. No wonder, he would love for your faith to be come shipwrecked - it would be a huge victory for him. But God is bigger than that. The time is coming when you will be so convinced of the reality of God and His kingdom and His Word, that nothing will shake you.
You have a call on your life - the charisma that you have draws people and that will draw them to Christ - in your writing, your acting, your voice, your speech, and just your personality. Your His son, a prince, a dreaded warrior.
I remember at Foxwood, when you sat in Frank’s chair and proclaimed parts of Psalm 119 declarations over him. Shortly after, he (with no prompting from me) decided he wanted to read and study the bible more.
Well, that’s all for now.
Ti amo.# me:I received your surprise package today. Thank you! I’ll add those resources to the pile of material I plan to go through to shore up my faith. I’m not sure that any amount of reading or watching is going to utterly eliminate the doubt, but these sorts of materials are certainly helpful as a bulwark against it. More than any reading, though, I’d love for God to make himself known to me “in ways that will overwhelm” me. Here I stand with eyes, ears, and arms wide open. I agree wholeheartedly with your prayer.
I want you to know that I pray, talk to, thank, and praise God despite this doubt. Surely that’s faith. I also want you to know that I still think Pascal’s wager, which is the “math” you describe, makes a lot of sense to me and remains part of my inner defenses as well, despite the idea having a philosophical beating in some anti-theist circles.
And to be clear, when I say that God is “Something that has worked so well for twenty-five years,” I don’t mean to see that He has insulated me from harm (although I think He sometimes has) and that that’s why I’m loathe to give Him up. Rather, knowing Jesus as a way living in and approaching the world, even in the face of suffering, has made tons of sense so far. It has formed my heart and my outlook and is so central to my healthy, strong identity that I’d be crazy to let it go.
So I don’t think that personal tragedy would be cause for me to curse and reject God. Actually, part of me suspects this grappling with the problem of evil in the abstract may be preparation to stand firm when evil hits me personally. I hope not and may it never be. But frankly, other than the divorce, which God took care of with long ago, I’ve lived a peachy life so far. So I do worry sometimes that tragedy is just around the corner.
You write, “The time is coming when you will be so convinced of the reality of God and His kingdom and His Word, that nothing will shake you.” I’ve spent most of my life with that conviction. May it return.
Thanks for reminding me about the Psalm 119 prayers for Frank.
I’ll mark down that we should talk about God’s ‘silence’ the next time we see each other, which is in just a few weeks!
Much love and thanks.
Serious consideration of the thoughts in the Atheism volume led to further reading on the Internet, which gave room for three theological “why?" questions to burrow into my soul:
Why, if God is all-good and all-powerful, does the world contain apparently meaningless suffering and evil?
Why, if God wants a relationship with His creatures, doesn’t He make Himself more obvious?
Why, if prayer is supposed to work the way I understand the Bible to describe it working, doesn’t it work more often?
These questions led to serious religious doubt back in May, which led to anxiety, which led to a sleepless night, despite my anguished cries for rest.
Since then, I had mostly been able keep conscious doubt at bay. The only manifestations were anxiety as I contemplated how to talk about death and God with my kids, and anxiety about not seeing God as obvious in nature like I’m “supposed to” according to the Bible.
Playing too sympathetic to my friends’ doubt at a sleepover, I relapsed into doubt pretty heavily starting on about 10/12, which led to the difficulty I experienced on my DiamondBack work trip comprising two more sleepless nights and lots of doubt and anxiety; thank God that Brandon accompanied me on the trip.
Along the way, I have relied heavily on three primary defenses to keep me alive:
The Bible anticipates suffering of all kind, including doubt and anxiety (e.g., Psalm 77), and has prescriptions on what to do about it (e.g., James 1:2-5, Hebrews 3:12-15).
God has “worked” for me for twenty-five years. It would be foolish to drop Him in favor of easy, atheistic answers to my three theological questions.
My friends, you included, have had experiences that are difficult to dismiss with naturalistic explanations.
I wanted to write briefly to update you: I have set my face to follow Jesus. But I have to tell you, the uncertainty about Him still undercuts my overall confidence and my prayer life. How do I talk with a still-invisible God of whom I’m unsure? The problem of evil makes me less likely to praise Him, the problem of divine hiddenness makes me less likely to thank Him, and the problem of unanswered prayer makes me less likely to ask of Him.
Moving through life with a foundation I’m unsure of is a novel experience for me. Whatever the benefits of the doubt—and I do intend to read that book—I think I was happier without it.
Why I’m unsure about Him after hearing miracle claims from close friends is a mystery to me. I do know doubt is very social, so I’m going to do what I can to avoid reading material from the dark side. And I have a lot of reading and video-watching to do to shore up my faith. One of the few things I’ve gotten to already is the McHargue article series you sent. I appreciated it, although I still don’t know how he goes about discussing faith and God with his kids.
Thank you again for your support through this.
Love and admiration,
Scott
P.S. Also, compared to me (and speaking very myopically), McHargue has a one-up on me that I envy: “I once heard Jesus whisper in my ear. A few hours later, I met God on the beach in one of the most powerful experiences of my life. I understand that this sounds ridiculous to modern ears, but I’m relaying my own experience here. I heard a voice, and then I had a time where I felt like I connected with something beyond physical space and time.” I cannot remember a similar experience in my own life. I’m jealous. I hold out hope for such an experience. Nevertheless, McHargue does lay out a nice place to be that harmonizes it all. He doesn’t answer the Questions, but he still invites me to a nice mindspace.
friend:
Thanks for the update! I was actually just about to write to ask.
So, your status has me thinking of the story of Jacob wrestling the angel, again. After all, he walked with limp the rest of his days. Did he regret his grappling with that shadowy figure? Did he miss the days of “wholeness” before, the unquestioning pursuit of his loves and desires? Or was it a reminder that gave him sustenance and holy pause through the turbulent days ahead? I don’t have a clue—but I suspect that he was buoyed by the fact that he heard from God in the midst of his aching, sleepless night.
And so I hear and agree with your desire to hear Christ “whisper”—and to know that it was Him.
That’s my prayer for both of us, today.
P.S. I hear you regarding doubt being a social thing, though I suspect the opposite is also true—what to do with this? Navigate the waters with humility and grace, I conclude.)I never want to fall in love with my own questions, my own hipster self-awareness. I’m remembered of an old Sixpence song [link lost]—perhaps you know it?
me:
Yes, if this struggle leads to a theophany, it’ll have been worth it. So AMEN. Heck, I’d take a miracle, or even a God-stamped “time where I felt like I connected with something beyond physical space and time.”
And yes, in my own heart, at least, faith is a social as doubt. I wonder how the social allure of faith feels to an atheist. Is it as anxious as that of doubt to a believer?
I agree wholeheartedly about the Questions. I don’t like Questions as part of my identity. I prefer the fruits of the spirit. And in the face of my questions:
Want a theodicy? Screw that; who knows? The point is: Evil is. So join God in fighting it and sympathizing with and relieving its victims.
Worried that God is hidden? Live in such a way that you reveal Him.
God may not answer most prayers in ways that are discernible, let alone miraculous. But that doesn’t mean He doesn’t answer some, even sometimes miraculously. And it doesn’t mean there aren’t other salubrious effects of praying. So pray anyway.Reflecting yesterday on how to raise my kids toward Jesus, and coupled with some knee-jerk thoughts when faced with criticisms of the Lewis trilemma—“Wait, what? People find problems with the Lewis trilemma? I thought that was open-and-shut! Man, this apologetics stuff is doomed”—it occurs to me that so much religious doubt and anxiety might be preempted if we acknowledged up front to our kids, similar to what McHargue advocates, that:
We might be wrong about our religious beliefs. But it’s still OK to hold them, and to do so very passionately, provided they aren’t motivation for hatred or violence. In fact, for many people, such beliefs are more than OK: they are joyful and vital.
Other people have looked at virtually the same evidence to the deity of Jesus and come to very different conclusions, often rationally, and sometimes motivated by love, or at least Polonian honesty. While this might challenge our soteriology or our Christology, it doesn’t have to assail our faith in God or even in Jesus.
We might be wrong! Whoa. Acknowledging that might be the biggest change in me through all this so far.
you entered my thoughts this morning, and I thought I would encourage you. I was listening to the radio and working out your salvation was mentioned (completely incorrectly as I currently see it), so I asked God what was up with you. I received back that you were in a drawing in period. So I asked what that means and what needs to be done. I got back that you need to relax into the uncomfortableness (unanswered questions, anxiety) and ride it out. That sounds very uncaring since “how do you do that?”. I got the picture of a woman in labor. She has these uncomfortable contractions and seemingly nothing is happening, but that baby is moving. So, relax into you contractions, deal with them the best you can. Your baby is coming on its (God’s) schedule.
me:
You spark hope and give me a strategy. Thank you. My natural tendency is not to relax in the face of uncertainty, but to bear down. In this stage, I can see easily the advantages of the latter.
Exactly one year ago today, I have down in my journal that you told me in a videochat that you were wanting a supernatural experience to help you firmly believe that Jesus is alive. I share that desire. Any luck? I’m reading a book on the subject you might find interesting.
friend:
An interesting question. If I’m honest, no, that hasn’t happened yet. I do, however, feel a bit less inner conflict between my desire for rational truth about the way the universe works and my faith, or culture, or whatever it is. Maybe I’m becoming more content with my inner discontent. Maybe I do have a relationship with God. We’re working it out.
For whatever it’s worth I’m meandering my way through Richard Rohr’s Everything Belongs and think it’s pretty interesting. One of the appealing aspects of modern Catholic thought is that they reconcile faith and thinking as a dualism rather than a battle. His book sometimes feels a little close to the edge of my tolerance for meaningless easternisms, but it’s worth the read.
How are you?
me:
Historically, God’s hiddenness has been a source of laughter between Him and me. Only very recently has it become an occasional source of doubt and discontent. But I remain convinced that He has largely hidden Himself on purpose. I’m still sussing out His reasons…something to do with developing people and having them be the ones to give revelation, help, and prayer answering. Even in the New Testament, encounters with God were almost all mediated. There must be something to it.
I pray we all work this Relationship out.
Faith and thinking have always gone hand in hand for me. I’ve never understood the battle. May it end.
I’ll add the Rohr book to my functionally infinite list of books to read.
As for me, other than the novel experience of doubt—which, oddly enough, came because of some reading I’m doing as part of an exploratory, evangelistic effort with a good friend—life is as peachy as can be.